Raw food brands and other inqueries :)

[PenelopesMommy]

Hi Guys

So I am interested in switching Penelope from a mix of Biljac and Purina Beneful Healthy Weight formula (about 1 1/3 cups per day) to a commercial raw food brand (while I get my reigns on eventually trying to prepare raw for her myself). This past Sunday Penelope had a very loose poop and she vomited twice, I immediately took her to the Vet and she was given a fluid pack under the skin, nausea meds, and another medication I give her orally for 10 days. Along with some of that Royal Canin ( Gatsro Intestinal) wet food. Since Sunday evening I have been administering her meds and feeding her the wet food and still loose bowels. No vomiting though. I am hoping that switching her to a raw diet with help her tummy and her progress as a growing pup.

I am also worried she isn't gaining enough weight. On 11/27/15 she weighed 7 lbs and on this past Sun 12/13 she weighed 7 lbs 10oz, should she have gained more than this? All of these issues/questions are what have led me to research the raw diet. I have come across three brands that should be available locally to me Primal, Stella & Chewy's, and Natures Variety. Can anyone recommend one over the other and give any insight into what I've written above?

She has a reg visit this upcoming Sat for shots, etc. and I will give another weight update then. Thanks in advance for any responses!!!!


Ryan (worried Mommy)

 

[MaplesMommy]

Did the vet explain what the meds were for? Not trying to judge anyone, but injections + 10 days meds because of some soft stool and a little vomit seems like an overkill to me...

Anyway, that aside : Great,that you want to switch to a fresh diet

Id personally go with Primal or Natures Variety,as they had never had a recall. Stella & Chewys had a couple recalls.
Primal uses a little bit more veg than NV , and Primal uses organic vegetables where NV is non organic.
Both are made in the US, poultry is pasteurized and they come in the same size variety (patties, nuggets etc.), so really, its up to your own preferance

Dogs grow at different rates. As long as she doesnt seem underweight or your vet mentioned anything about her weight, I wouldnt worry too much.

Also, please do not have her vaccinated while she is either still on the meds and/or still not feeling 100% well.
A vet should know that, yet I have heard of some stories, where vets vaccinated sick animals, with not so good outcomes.

 

[PenelopesMommy]

Maples Mommy thank you so much for your response! As soon as I get home I will update with exactly what the medication is called. I believe she is trying to combat dehydration but don't quote me. I will admit that I was one that was all about whatever the Vet says until I started doing some research for myself. I am currently headed to a store that carries all three brands ( Kiki's Pet Supply) I just called and she spoke highly of Primal as well so I think I may start there she also suggested goats milk?

The vet didn't mention anything about her weight but I can see the bottom of her ribs sometimes depending how she is positioned. I will ask about it Sat and also request no vaccines if she is still under the weather. Since she is on wet food now do you think it's ok to go ahead and just give her the raw meal or introduce it gradually? Sorry so many questions I just want my baby healthy and happy. FYI she is still Very active and hasn't been at all lethargic or unwilling to eat. In fact she acts as if she is always hungry lol. Her sleep pattern is normal and no itching or mentionable odd behavior.

 

[PenelopesMommy]

Ok so an update with pics of baby girl and food, meds, etc.

 

[MaplesMommy]

Hi there,
Id continue with the meds for now. I mean I am not a vet, but its a matter of fact that some overprescribe medication that potentially causes more harm/side effect than the original issue. But thats just my personal opinion. I understand that especially with a puppy, even little thing could become bigger problems fast. But in my personal experience I rarely run into soft stool or vomiting, but when I do, I just let it run its course. As long as the dog is not lethargic or shows any other signs of severe discomfort, I believe in his natural ability to fight of whatever may be causing problems. Blend diet and certain herbs have so far always worked. But once again, this is only my personal experience/opinion

As for the raw : Primal is definitely a great company. I see you already bought some. Awesome! Duck is a fatty protein, sometimes it can cause some soft stool if the dog isnt used to it. Chicken or Turkey would be easier to digest, but you could jump right in with the Duck. I would feed a couple bites throughout the day and see how she feels about it. (If she even likes it). There are many different ways to start raw. Some people introduce it slowly, some go cold-turkey 100%. Kibble/wet food and raw digest differently,so sometimes by mixing them together, that itself can cause a digestive upset.
But go with your gut feeling and try out what works best with her.

You can see her ribs a little bit. Not over concerning though. My girl had a super fast metabolism as a pup,too. But she eventually filled out. If you switch to raw you will be taking all carbohydrates out of her diet (which is a good thing because with this you're also taking away all the sugar(and fyi there is a lot of sugar in Purina and RC). You could add a 'good', low glycemic carb back to her diet. Quinoa or steel cut oats are good options. Every 1/2 cup cooked carb = 3 oz of meat. If you want to fill her up a little, you can just add a teaspoon of Quinoa (for example) with each meal for some extra calories.

As for the goats milk, did she mean Kefir or just plain goats milk?

Sorry for the long reply, I tend to go into too much detail when it comes to nutrition

 

[eeturk]

Maples mommy covered everything else really well, but I wanted to add that we feed that same goat's milk and it helps TREMENDOUSLY with firming up my dog's stool and combatting tummy troubles. Good luck!


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[PenelopesMommy]

Don't be sorry I LOVE long replies lol as they help me gain some insight. So the first feeding I did about half and half raw + wet food. The second time round I just gave her the primal pronto. She seems to like it s she ate the whole bowl and was licking it after lol her stool after the first feeding was still pretty loose but a second stool I saw three little pieces that looked like they wanted to be solid. As for the goats milk it's just a plain goat milk by primal as well. And I got here the beef bones for treats too.

Again as I said I think I was just being paranoid and overprotected because when I get sick I don't just run to get meds I usually let it subside and maybe we could've done the same with Penelope since she's still been eating/active. I am worried about her weight but will monitor even closer with the new raw addition. Please don't hesitate to always ante your opinions and suggestions with me I'm all ears!!! Ps I LOVE quinoa so that shouldn't be too hard to have accessible for her!

- - - Updated - - -

Maples mommy covered everything else really well, but I wanted to add that we feed that same goat's milk and it helps TREMENDOUSLY with firming up my dog's stool and combatting tummy troubles. Good luck!


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Just wondering how you give it to her? Alone or with food/meal?

 

[PenelopesMommy]

Please excuse all my typos in the last post lol I swear I have a grasp on grammar and the English language! I'm using my iPhone with predictive text and it seems to have a mind of it own lmao!

 

[eeturk]

Just wondering how you give it to her? Alone or with food/meal?

I put it in the bottom of his bowl, mix it with his immune system supplement, and then sort of cut up his food (he's on raw) and it absorbs some of it. He loves it so he cleans the rest out of his bowl.


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[MaplesMommy]

Once on the raw you will also notice that the amount of her waste will be minimized because her body can actually absorb almost all nutrients.
I have heard of Goats Milk Kefir, we use Kefir as well, but its a coconut Kefir.Im assuming they recommend the goats milk for the same reason as the Kefir : Probiotics. Everybody really should be taking them,because 70-80% of the immune system lays in the gut region. So a healthy gut = a healthy dog/human. I take my Kefir 'shot' every day

I love that you're doing so much research. You can find interesting articles on dogs naturally magazine, Mercola Healthy Pets or if you have facebook, check out Planet Paws.

 

[PenelopesMommy]

I have FB so I will definitely check out Planet Paws. I will give the others a look-see as well. I was thinking to myself hmm Kefir sounds like it would be good for humans too lol, glad to know we can drink it as well. I am excited to see what results the goats milk has on Penelope because as of this am we still have some loose stool but I'm going to attribute that to the change to the raw diet. She gobbles it up pretty quick so it seems like it is something she likes. Thanks so much for your help!!

 

[MaplesMommy]

Kefir is awesome! I havent been sick in a long time, even with coughing and sneezing people around me. My aunt has been taking probiotics for years now and she,too, rarely comes down with a cold
Its not the greatest taste, but its great for your body. Especially after taking medication/antibiotics,since antibiotics kill all bacteria,including the beneficial bacteria in your gut flora.

Fingers crossed she will adapt soon & her stool will firm up

 

[Cbrugs]

Everyone seems to have you covered so I'll just throw in that I switched Jax to raw approximately a month ago and I have been using the brand Vital Essentials. It is a meat only commercial raw, no fruits or veggies. I didn't do a transition from the kibble and just went 100% raw one day and he adjusted just fine with no issues.

 

[Jakeyjake]

I recently contacted Primal to see if they were ever going to put out a freeze dried base mix or pre mix so that I could add my own protein because the fruits and veggies are organic, but the protein they use is not. Although the answer was no, their response may be of interest to you. See below:

Angeline King <aking@primalpetfoods.com>


Dec 11 (5 days ago)


Good Afternoon Laura,




I have forwarded your inquiry along to the owner, who has let me know that we do not have any plans to create such a product in the future.




Otherwise, in the event that you are open to using our Formulas, it may be helpful to keep in mind that:
1.The Primal Lamb comes from a non-GMO supplier in New Zealand, where GMO feed has been written out of the feed laws for livestock
2.The Primal Venison comes from the same non-GMO supplier in NZ
3.The Primal Rabbit comes from a supplier in France who feeds a non-GMO diet of alfalfa
4.The Primal Beef is grass fed for the initial life stages (although it is grain finished)
5.Primal does not use any factory farms, and only chooses to work with relatively small, sustainable, human grade farms and ranches which refrain from the use of antibiotics, steroids, or added hormones, and incorporate 100% vegetarian feed while treating their livestock animals with dignity throughout their lives. Read more about our sourcing online at Primal Consumer Confidence and Product Integrity.

Hope that helps! Please don’t hesitate to reach out again any time, however, and I will be happy to provide further assistance. You and the fur family take care, have a great day, and an excellent rest of your week!




Best Wishes,







Angeline King
Marketing / Customer Service
Primal Pet Foods
t: 415.813-5542 | toll free: 866.566.4652
f: 415.642.7404 | w: primalpetfoods.com
e: aking@primalpetfoods.com

 

[PenelopesMommy]

Ok so sorry for showing you this but lol I wanted to show you the progression in Penelope's poop since on Primal Raw it's still diarrhea but looks a bit diff. Maybe you can let me know if it looks like anything you've seen. Also she has started to scratch a bit same spot on her neck right by her name tag on her collar. Not a long or vigorous scratch just a quick short one. Hopefully she's not mad at me for doing this lmao!!



That is the first day with mix of raw and wet.



This is today.


Hope I didn't ruin anyone's dinner!

 

[PenelopesMommy]

Everyone seems to have you covered so I'll just throw in that I switched Jax to raw approximately a month ago and I have been using the brand Vital Essentials. It is a meat only commercial raw, no fruits or veggies. I didn't do a transition from the kibble and just went 100% raw one day and he adjusted just fine with no issues.

I may look into this brand if her stools still aren't firming up after a week or so. Maybe it's the fruit,etc in Primal that's still bothering her?

 

[KimB3384]

I used to experience what's in your photos on average 11 times a day when Bisou was a puppy. That's not an exaggeration, either. It was awful for both of us. I am 99.99999% certain it was a sensitivity to chicken, but will probably never know for sure. I spent the first year of her life turning her into a little guinea pig, rotating through a number of different commercial raw brands to see how she would respond. Stella & Chewy's, Nature's Variety Instinct, Primal - you name it, we tried it. We had the most success when we cut out everything extra and just went all meat with Vital Essentials, but we had yeast issues in addition to food intolerance issues, so that just made sense for us.

A good probiotic is going to help tremendously with stomach/bowel issues, especially since you've been on antibiotics. Those will wipe out any good gut bacteria and you need gut bacteria to have normal poops and to fight off any other issues. I use plain kefir every day except on Sundays when I add some Bene-bac to Bisou's breakfast. Bene-bac is a super powerful probiotic that is basically magic in a plastic container. I heart it super hard because, yeah, our gut issues were bad and this stuff made them non-existant. I buy the powder on amazon, but I know that lots of pet and/or farm stores carry it.

As for food, as long as you don't have any scratching/allergy issues you should be good with any of the commercial brands you listed. The trick will be finding a protein (or three, for rotation purposes) that work for you. Check out this food energetics chart for some neutral foods to try. You can always expand from there. I know this sounds crazy, but since you have stomach issues right now, tripe might be the way to go. It's loaded with good enzymes and is super gentle on the stomach. If Beezy gets an upset stomach, I give her tripe as a meal and have never had an issue with it shooting out of either end. It's complete enough that you can feed it for a week or two until you get the gut working well and then you could start to introduce other proteins. Raw green tripe can be hard to come by, but Tripett makes a good line of products. I know they have beef, bison, lamb, and venison - we use bison because of the allergies. It's a canned product, which some people turn their noses up at, but I feel like perfect is the enemy of good. You can't sit and wait for the perfect option because it might never come, you know?

Also, I don't think anyone has suggested it, but have you tried adding some canned pumpkin to Penelope's meals? Not the pie filling, but the actual canned pumpkin? It's loaded with fiber and helps to soak up excess water in the stool. Again, if you don't have any itching issues, this could be a great addition to your diet on a temporary basis until you get things firmed up.

Good luck! We'll get Penelope on the right track in no time

 

[PenelopesMommy]

First let me say thank you thank you for your response!! I already started looking up the tripe on Amazon and came across the Trippett brand so I will go ahead and get some of that. I do have some goats milk thawing out as we speak to add to dinner tonight to see if that helps any. ( Goats milk is supposed to be like an equivalent to the Kefir In that contains probiotics, etc.)

I am going to try adding in the Goats Milk with the Primal before I switch to another brand just because this is already her 2nd food change within a week. ( I'm sure this is a contributing factor as well) I read in other posts about the canned pumpkin so I will look for that too. Is it something easily found in grocery stores? I tried to give her a small piece of banana last night thinking the fiber may help but she doesn't like them at all! Lol no interest.

I'm so happy you got Bisou on the right track and I hope Penelope gets there soon lol poor thing was looking terrified when she pooped on the wall and I just held her after like it's ok you're sick! You tried to make the puppy pad smart girl lol!!

 

[KimB3384]

I live in a dinky area, so the only goat milk I could find was ultrapasteurized, which just defeats the purpose of giving it in the first place. But thanks to the interwebz, I was able to find a powdered product from The Honest Kitchen called Pro Bloom. Not the worst thing to have on hand if you stay on that as your probiotic. It'd be way easier for traveling, that's for sure. Goat's milk has a funky smell, but if you're down with goat cheese (and who doesn't dig cheese, amirite?) it's all good.

Speaking of smell, I should warn you about the tripe. Because that is some of the most disgusting stuff you will ever come across. Lamb tripe has the most mild smell and buffalo is the worst, IMO. Like, I-want-to-crawl-under-the-table-and-die bad. But darn if those dogs don't just eat it right up. Beezy tries to lick the finish off of her stainless steel bowl at meal time.

Yes, I think you're on the right track with keeping Penelope on Primal for now and supplementing with goat milk. The medications, antibiotics, and don't forget the fluids she was given, are probably all acting as the perfect storm in that tiny little ecosystem of hers. The canned pumpkin can be found in any grocery store, and maybe even in some Dollar stores. It'll be in the baking aisle. If in doubt, check the ingredients. If the only one listed is pumpkin, you've got the right thing. If there are any spices or other things, that's not what you're after.

Keep us posted. We've all been there at some point in time. Because that's life with a Frenchie

 

[PenelopesMommy]

Thank you I will grab some pumpkin this weekend and I just did some more googling and I think I may have found a store that sells the tripe lol I'll prob go for the lamb or beef first. I'm usually ok with yucky stuff BUT this tripe has me shaking in my boots a little lmao because everyone keeps saying how horrible it is to handle! As for Vital Essentials I am having trouble finding it locally. I see it on Amazon but does anyone order their frozen food? How is delivery with that? I'm just worried it may spoil or something.

But let me tell you when I come home to that face I am overwhelmed with just wanting to make her happy lol. She truly cracks me up and she has turned my bf into a HUGE mush ball hahaha. She was the perfect addition to our place and I am loving seeing her personality unfold! They are some funny little things!!

Update question:

Is it prebiotic or probiotic? I ordered the gel form that comes in tubes but it said prebiotic so I canceled it, is that diff from what you give Bisou?